Simply ‘Religulous’
Religion is silly. I didn’t need Bill Maher to tell me that, I’ve thought that for a while.
I started to realize it when I was in second grade while attending a Catholic school. I always thought it was odd some of the things in the Bible (which some people swear by its literal interpretation) mirrored the comic books I loved so much as a kid. God and Jesus are good, and the Devil, well, he’s just plain evil. As I got older, I always thought it odd there were such purely good and evil things in the Bible with little semblance of such uniformity in the real world; rarely is someone or something inherently and consistently good or bad all around.
Around third or fourth grade did I actually realize there was religion beyond Christianity. “These people are religious but aren’t Christians?” Now that I realize there are so many religious beliefs, I wonder who’s right and who’s wrong; I ask: who exactly is living their life believing in the right or wrong path?
In seventh grade I distinctly remember learning about the Crusades. Religion was the driving force behind that much bloodshed? What a waste I thought, but at least no one is dying about such silly stuff now, right…?
Apparently, the world still hasn’t shaken the need to grasp onto answers, credible or not, to provide for “life lessons” and a way to cope with not knowing what happens to us when we die.
What makes any religion more credible than another? What makes any religion credible in the first place? Whenever I bring this up, most people I ask point to faith. People take pride in faith when they shouldn’t be. Faith is not good. Faith is without evidence. Faith is belief without reason.
It’s amazing to me that people pray; if you think your prayers, along with the simultaneous prayers of millions of others around the world, are really all being heard by some omnipotent being, why can’t Santa Claus deliver a present to every household in the world in one night? Who’s to say when and where logic can be suspended?
But of course there are many out there who separate themselves from those “nutty” people who believe in the literal interpretation of age old material. “Not me. I’m religious but I don’t believe in it literally! It has just led me to live a better life!”
Perhaps religion has led you to live a better life, but life sans religion is just as good with a little philosophy and some upright morals. You can teach selflessness and honesty and live by them too, without religion.
Why associate with religious groups that are so often homophobic, misogynistic, and intolerable of others? Why associate with groups that are historically (and continually) so hell bent on converting others and preserving their faith that they will resort to violence and murder. From the Crusades, to the extermination of Native American culture, to the current violence in the Middle East and more, religion has changed the course of history and cost the lives of millions. For what? A little life/moral guidance and comfort in “knowing” where we end up after this life?
Atheism is just as baseless as religion because like religion, it presumes to know enough to make a decision. Agnosticism on the other hand presumes nothing; it simply does not know yet and may never know.
Unlike religion and atheism, agnosticism is not arrogant in saying it knows enough to stop searching for answers. Instead, agnosticism is humble, humble in that it realizes we don’t have all the answers.
Perhaps we should be less concerned with the answers and more concerned with experience, evidence and reasoning.
Some introspection is in order.
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If God is omnipotent, good, loving, and kind, what is his excuse for not ending sin, death, suffering, and donkey punching Satan?
Religion, the world’s excuse for large scale murder.
Religion and the belief in an omnipotent being is completely irrational and pointless. Prayer and faith do nothing whatsoever, though people will constantly attribute the success of something to them while grinning through anything bad by telling themselves that god has a plan for them that they can’t see. It’s because they want to believe that everything in the universe is ordered and everything will be alright when in reality, it’s a chaotic rhythm; god and Satan were just created by man so that he wouldn’t have to claim responsibility for his own actions. After all, if there really were some all knowing, all powerful, and benevolent being, why allow such horrific atrocities throughout human history, 70% of them committed in each god’s name (the Crusades, Muslim extremism, the Holocaust (Hitler was a Christian), Native American genocide, etc.; the list goes on and on).
TJ: Let me say this. Nobody can prove that their belief system is 100% true in this world. Now with that being said, all I have to do is say that the human mind is nothing compared to “God’s”. So we may not understand everything he does/wants. There ya go. You don’t have to agree with it, but that’s one explanation to your question.
TJ, most religious people (especially Christians) will point to faith, not logic. Your questions are irrelevant to them; they are unanswerable.
The topic of God should not be approached with bias. If you want to know truth you must strip away all these perceptions that influence your thinking. You must want to know truth, regardless of the costs.
Nearly all of your here have represented your arguments with extreme bias, with little empathy for the opposing argument, or charity. That is why these discussions never go anywhere. No one has a truly open mind. You think you have things figured out. A mind that can objectively analyze a concept without embracing it is a logical mind.
Some of you claim to be logical but veer from logic into bias and opinion.
At least acknowledge that you may be staking your eternity on your fallible, fragile, shakable, changeable, and often incorrect opinion. That is not something to be taken lightly.
For you Christians: Why do you abandon the logic? Is not your God logical? Don’t be believe he created a logical (scientific) system? If your God did create the universe than didn’t he also create the system of logic? If he did create the system of logic couldn’t you use logic to prove his existence? Isn’t science logical? Didn’t your God create science? Shouldn’t there be a link between science and God if so?
You claim allegiance to a being that most of you regard as outside the realms of logic. Doesn’t that seem strange? How do you explain that? Do you just ignore it? Do you bluster about it? What is your answer?
Your eternity lies in this answer!
i am a Christian. what Christians fail to do is not judge others. many will point to the verse that says we are to judge all things. that is true but the key word there is all things. it does not say all people in fact it says just the opposite. it sat judge not lest you be judged accordingly. many Christians would do good to learn the difference. any Christian who says to a nonbeliever that they are going to hell is guilty of self righteousness. let he without sin cast the first Stone.
I think we’ll just leave well enough alone, btw I agree, I don’t think religion is silly either.
A goodnight to all, and to all, a good night=)
It’s not about being fair or not. That has nothing to do with this. All I am saying is that if you really think it is important, just do it. There are always people that are going to say it’s unrealistic (some for a good reason). But that doesn’t mean it can’t be overcome. Heck, the Stem cell guy at UCI, I think his name is Dr. Kiersted (something like that, don’t know the spelling), had a lot of critics and opposition but look where he is at now. He is part of a study that is the first of its kind, ie: using stem cells in human beings.
To you, that means, stop complaining about people not trying and just go do it.
I am not dismissing your potential for finding an answer. Like I said, to me it’s not worth the time. Let me give you one quick example. The whole religion thing to me is like trying to help a 4’5″ person make the NBA. I know it’s not impossible, but it’s highly unlikely that this person would make the NBA. All I am saying is that I would rather help make this 4’5″ person accomplish some other, much more realistic thing.
And in the end, I must say one last thing. Religion in itself is not silly, muahahahaha. (Gotta make sure I finish by actually addressing the actual topic)
Good day lad.
I agree that people should help improve the life of others, I have not once indicated otherwise. I’m glad that you want to be a doctor especially if you’re in it to actually help rather than as many are, that is just for the money.
While you have admitedly not said don’t try, you have however refused to allow that there can be an answer, everytime you say go ahead or try you virtually always qualify it with but there’s no answer or it can’t be done, etc. I have never said that it can be achieved in our lifetime or indeed the lifetimes of my children, grandchildren, etc, what however I have said is that the sooner people make an attempt, then theoretically the sooner an answer may be found. To give you a medical example if we had not bothered to start working on cancer all those decades ago then how long would it be if we only started now for our current cancer treatments to come in to existance, and how many people living today because of those treatments would be dead(who back at the beginning of the search for those cures would have thought of radiation as a usefull tool in cancer?). The point I make is that the earlier people start looking for a solution, then potentially the sooner an answer may be found. That you don’t want to look or try is fair enough, i’ve already said each must do what they must, however to deride and dismiss others because you say it can’t be done is being unfair to those who are at least willing to go for it(don’t forget they used to deride those who said transplants could be done). On the one hand your saying go ahead, good luck, then immediately after you’re dismissing them out of hand because you can’t see an answer.
Anyway as i’ve already said we are not going to agree on this, so I say to you good luck and be a great doctor and have every success in your chosen field, and to anyone who is reading this, instead of dismissing the potential for an answer out of hand, then please, whenever you have some time where you are not doing anything else, then just give it a bit of thought, after all you might have the answer that has eluded so many! =)
You’re getting way too confused Mr. Logical.
As long as people try to improve the life of others, it doesn’t matter what it is. Just because I don’t care about one issue (in this case religion) does not make me a quitter on all things. I already told you that, but you seem to not understand. That is why I said I will not work on the religious issue, but rather work on improving others health. I see improving others health a more realistic goal, so I will rather spend my time on that. Unfortunately not a doctor yet, but attrition rate for US MD schools is roughly 2-4% so I should be fine. (<—- this is part of how I am taking action)
I never said to you that you shouldn’t try to solve the religious issue, or that any other person shouldn’t try to solve any other issue, for that matter. I just said that I believe that there are varying levels of realisticness (if such a word exists), and the religion issue is too unrealistic, in my opinion, to be solved. That in my current world is essentially “impossible”. Of course if you really want to get technical, nothing in this world is impossible, but some things are just too improbable that I would just not want to spend my time on. So to me, yes it seems like a waste of time. Again, nothing against people that want to solve it. If that’s what they feel is important, then they should work hard to find a solution.
That’s all.
1. Agreed
2. Not disputing most of that, yet look how much time, etc you have used essentially opposing me, that you could have used thinking of an answer. If you have enough time to be negative and to critisize, then you have enough time to actually stop and think of an answer.
3. I never claimed that it was wrong to cure disease, and please don’t twist my words out of context. What if I may ask do you do, are you a doctor?I believe that we should find cures of course, it would be foolish to think otherwise, yet if you want to talk wasting resources on what you consider foolish things then you need to look at some of the amazing stupidity that goes on constantly, not to mention the corruption, etc. Examples for you to consider, toilets for the military at one time were being bought for $2000 per toilet! (that’s a classic), a politician that put a bill on his expense account for a sandwich and a coffee £80!, or if we just look at your average person who will pay100-200 for a pair of trainers that are identical in every way (bar name) to a far cheaper pair, why they don’t look any different, they don’t last any longer and in some cases I know of they are even made on the same assembly line!
4. Once again you twist wordage for your purpose. At no point have I ever said “everyone only do this”, that’s asinine. I have merely said that when you have a bit of time to spare, give it a thought.Why don’t I take a lead? What do you think this written conversation is a form of? Anyone who reads this discussion between us will hopefully sit back and give it a go, spare a bit of time now and again to think it over. You however are telling everybody “not to try” thereby opposing the very thing that you tell me to do.
5. The reason for that is simple, you don’t want to try because it involves you and your time. I’m not religious either, where’d that come from? I don’t know if I can but at least I can try, whereas all you can do is demean and deride anyone (whether it’s me or anyone else) who actually wants to do it. What exactly makes you so sure it can’t be done? or maybe it’s what has happened to you to make you so pessimistic, or maybe just, defeatist? I don’t know exactly how to define you, you seem so utterly desperate to shoot any hope or chance down.
6. Really, sorry you fooled me, you have basically done nothing more than say no, no, no, no,ad infinitum. I wish I could say I will, but i’m not egotistical enough to presume I have all the answers, I would just like people to give it a go, that’s all. Many things have been done because people have stood up or thought something through or tried a new approach, ironically that’s where so many of those medical breakthroughs you want have come from.
It’s been interesting communicating with you, I hope you do well in whatever you do.
Wow, where to start with this.
1. We agree that solving the religion issue is probably tougher than curing diseases (generally speaking).
2. There are so many problems out there, not everyone can solve everything. That means, people need to allocate their time and other resources towards things that they feel are important and have realistic solutions.
3. I never said ideology is less important than health. I said that, atleast for me, I would like to use my time/resources on something I am interested in, will potentially benefit others, and is realistic. That is why I brought up curing diseases. You make it sound like that’s wrong. Why is that wrong?
4. You make it sound like all people need to work on the religion issue. Why? (Refer back to #2) Why don’t you take lead and get people on board with ya.
5. Sorry, but you can’t even convince me that there is a solution. And I’m not even religious. What makes you think that you can convince others to “try”?
6. I don’t have anything against you wanting to solve this religion issue. By all means, please come up with a solution. I wish you the best of luck.
I’ve agree that it’s less likely to be solved than other things, but you are saying just give up. How would you feel if say you had cancer or aids and all the doctors,etc went, it’s too hard, lets give up. Before you say it’s different, I know it’s different, but then so are all problems otherwise we would only need one answer to solve everything. Incidentaly, so you know, my families medical history indicates a trend of cancer through the males on my paternal side so that means that I am at a higher risk than average, so yes a cure would be nice, but however if someone were to walk up to me and say, “choice solve religious intolerance and help make the future of your children better, but die from cancer, or cure cancer and let the world end in a religious war”, I hope that I would have the courage to say improve the world. You say that ideology is less important than illness, yet if you look at the statistics more people die from one form of intolerance or other than from any one disease.
There will always be those who will not conform to a viewpoint however much sense it makes but if you can get the majority to agree and put aside their differences then that is a giant step forward. Maybe beliefs won’t change “just like that”, nor (if you reread what I have said) will they do so, the point I make is that you say don’t bother, whereas I am saying lets try, after all “nothing at all” happens if you don’t try and that is how you prove your point, by not doing anything, nothing changes. Various religions have had to go through major upheavals because they were forced through one thing or another that they were wrong, i’m not even trying to tell them that, all i’m suggesting is that they step back, look again and think about it from another point of view for a while and see what shakes loose or becomes clearer. Maybe they won’t change, maybe they will, your just saying again lets try something else, after all if there is no point trying on this why try changing anything else, or perhaps you only want to change things that benefit you in one form or another, I.E money, fame, glory, medals, etc, as long as you view in those terms it will only be a case of me, me, me and not us, ours, theirs.
A manner convenient to me? In what way, the result might be having to go to church, temple, mosque, whatever, every day. I don’t want to do that, it might be that I have to cut my foreskin off, or flagellate myself, I sure as hell don’t want to do that, but you know, if it helps to bring a closer, less intolerant, more peacefull world, I will do my best even if I have to grind my teeth to nubs in the process. You think that I want it to suit me because thats the way you think, read back through everything I have wrote and shown me where i’ve said that I want it a particular way. The only thing that I am trying to get my way is for people to try and not sit on their asses and do nothing, passing the problem on to the next generation and the next because it’s too much like hard work. As far as I can see i’m guilty of one thing and that is saying that those people whining that it’s too hard should actually try instead of hiding behind excuses and laziness. Think of everything you have accomplished in your life from taking your first steps to learning how to do all the things that you have done so far in your life, this is taking another step, what are you afraid of, losing a bit of your time?, helping others?, trying to do something new? Just think of how much energy and intellectual thought you have used to find different ways of saying no, no, no, when you could have used that same energy to actually think of an answer. Ironic isn’t it, 30 comments that could have been spent going, I wonder how we could?
Well, ok, let’s phrase it differently for you. This religion issue is far less probable to solve than other issues.
For example, I would rather try to cure diseases than think of religion. It doesn’t really matter what ideology/philosophy you live by, if you have some disease, you probably want it cured. Things that are not closely tied with ideology/philosophy is a much more beneficial to solve in my mind. Most people will benefit.
And if one believes that God said something in a certain way, and then another person believes that God said it a different way, how will there be a compromise? Is it really as simple as you say it is? If one thinks its’ an apple and one think it’s an orange, is it as simple as saying “okay, let’s just call it an orpple and be friends (sorry, couldn’t think of anything)”? I don’t think religious beliefs just change like that, or are even meant to be changed like that.
In essence, it seems to me like you just want religions to change in a manner that is most convenient to you.
All i’ve said is try, all you’ve said is don’t want to, to hard, to hard, don’tbother, which is why it is not possible at this point in time. The longer more people like you sit back and say “lets try something easier”, than longer and harder it becomes. It’s always easier to let someone else do the work for you
No i’m not a security guard or live in a particualy dangerous neighbourhood, I just happened to be in the “right place at the right time”, and was able to do something for another person
1. The burden of proof? ah legalistic bullshit, translation, if you say I have to prove it that means you can sit back, make a few derogatory comments and big surprise, not think of a way yourself
2. Well let’s see, I don’t leave people to be attacked,I try to help people regardless of colour or religion, etc. When I get the local door to door jehovahs/mormons knocking i’ll chat with them rather than slamming the door, i’m not afraid to express my views or admit i’m wrong, if someone has a better idea than me i’ll support them rather than make snide comments or say there is no answer, if someones idea appears valid i’ll give it a go rather than sit on my ass and let others do the work. Basically i’m saying it could work if we try, you however are reducing this into a stupid game of I say, you say because it’s not worth it to you, you’re not bothered, you’re happy to let any kids you have or might have in the future, live in a world turning to crap because you don’t want to get you hands dirty, get involved or flex that most powerfull of muscles, the brain, to do something positive
3. The taxi answer is a logical one if you put it in context, you gave me a seemingly impossible conundrum, and you’re either annoyed because I gave you an answer or you just really can’t see how I resolved your “impossibility” question. Put the answer into context and you’ll understand, flex your brain rather than leaving it in neutral.
Agreed the differences are what cause the problem, but if you bring the parties closer together with their similarities, the differences start to look less significant, try looking into negotiational techniques, you will be surprised how often things like that are used. This however I agree is on a far bigger and more delicate scale, but it could be done, especially if people start saying yes instead of no.
You don’t want to, it’s useless, too unrealistic. That’s why it doesn’t get resolved, because, as i’ve said before everyone has an excuse, then when the excuses run out it’s why me, and it’s impossible, that’s why I gave examples before where everyone’s said something’s impossible, and then the impossible has been shown to be possible, naysayers like yourself have been proven wrong time and again, i’d lay odds that if you had lived 100-150 years ago, you’d have jumped up and down saying space flight was impossible.
You say that you would rather think of other things that have more realistic solutions? O.K what are these other things, give me a list, if I can think of the answer/s you can have them. AQll I ask in return is that you stop giving up on this problem and give it your best shot, i’m serious tell me what your problem/s is/are and i’ll see if I can answer any of them, free of charge as long as you try to solve this problem regarding religion. Are YOU up for it? You never know, you might have the answer to the problem locked in your head and not even realise it.
….and btw, I do not want to think of solutions for this kind of thing, because I think it’s useless. Too unrealistic in my opinion. I’d rather think of other things that have more realistic solutions. I’ll let the thinking to people like you. Maybe you will find something.
Wow. You must either be a security guard or something, or be at the wrong places at the wrong times. Or, maybe you just live in a dangerous neighborhood.
First of all, you’re the one saying it’s possible so you have the burden of proof.
Second, it’s one thing to say “try” and have ideas about “trying”. Now the question becomes, what have you actually done to make it a reality? Again, you’re the one saying its possible, not me.
Third, regarding the taxi thing. How is it possible to go to both places at the same time? Just not possible. That was my point. Some things are just not possible at this point in history.
Lastly, focus on similarities and not the differences? That’s great, but that doesn’t eliminate the differences. The differences are what causes problems.
Ooops, sorry yes number 72 was me
y5y. Wrote; i4ptyresiutyhg345y
I wrote, ?????????????????????, does that mean something, sorry to anyone if I sound like a noob, but wtf is that supposed to mean.???????????????
This has nothing to do with the issue at hand, but it’s just a personal interest thing. I don’t know where this happened but let’s say it wasn’t in the most dangerous places. I pose a question to you. Would you have done the same if the men had weapons?
It has a lot to do with it, think about it. On another occasion I have done just that, the person attacking had a knife, during the struggle the victim managed to escape thankfully, as a result I was cut across the arm, the attacker however was less fortunate. I’m not saying this to be big or brave or any crap like that, it’s merely a case of what has happened,actually, thinking about it, I realise that I have been invilved in a number of things that have made some differences here and there, some have left a physical scar, while others have left mental ones. I don’t expect you to believe me, because it seems that most people on the internet make claims of being this or that.
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Back to our topic. I understand that when people give up, the potential for a solution disappears at that moment. For many things, I would say “don’t give up”. But again, this is a truly different issue.
No it’s not a case of being a different issue, it’s a case of it’s too hard to try to make a peacefull resolution so lets not bother
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ave you seen those Mercury commercials where a person asks another person to do something that is impossible. I don’t remember the exact thing so I will make one up. A customer orders a hamburger with cheese and without cheese. Or someone asks a taxi driver to essentially go east and west at the same time. Some things are just impossible, and I think this is one of them.
No I haven’t seen the adverts, but I think that you are confusing impossible with improbable. Oh, a suggestion as a way of thinking for those two ads you have described.
One burger with cheese on on half only
Taxi driver can either enter the east end of london for example from the east heading west, or alternatively remember that if he goes east or west he will eventually end up in the other.
These adverts you speak of are merely mind games, sufficient thought can often times beat them.
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Since you’re the optimist, why don’t you give examples of how this issue can get resolved. Again, with ideological stuff, I think the “impossible” exists.
Wow, I didn’t know a bit of optemist could create so much negative,O.k.
How about trying to get some of the religious leaders to all meet for a start,
how about showing the similarities between the various relgions instead of the differences,
how about pointing out the fact that god, jehovah, allah, are actually basically the same word but in a different language,
I have several more suggestions but i’ll leave it there for now,
how about instead of always saying let someone else try, it won’t work, i’m busy, how about you thinking of a positive way of approaching the problem and you trying to find an answer as well as me and that includes anyone else who has read this and gone “naa, it’s not worth the effort. Frankly being negative about things is a piece of piss to do, what is hard, is doing things positively instead. As long as the majority shout no it can’t be done, don’t bother, then it won’t be done, it’s all up to if you can be bothered enough to try, no? Ohh well it was worth a try, wasn’t it?????
i4ptyresiutyhg345y
This has nothing to do with the issue at hand, but it’s just a personal interest thing. I don’t know where this happened but let’s say it wasn’t in the most dangerous places. I pose a question to you. Would you have done the same if the men had weapons?
Back to our topic. I understand that when people give up, the potential for a solution disappears at that moment. For many things, I would say “don’t give up”. But again, this is a truly different issue.
Have you seen those Mercury commercials where a person asks another person to do something that is impossible. I don’t remember the exact thing so I will make one up. A customer orders a hamburger with cheese and without cheese. Or someone asks a taxi driver to essentially go east and west at the same time. Some things are just impossible, and I think this is one of them.
Since you’re the optimist, why don’t you give examples of how this issue can get resolved. Again, with ideological stuff, I think the “impossible” exists.
Thank you for the applause. As the the unrealism though, yes it’s true, but only because people don’t try. Think for a moment, if more people made the attempt rather than as you, yourself say, just wait and see, then that unrealistic possibility would become far more possible.
The thing is there is a common belief, I.E one god, doing good deeds, etc. All this crops up time and time again in most religions. The problem with most religions is in the language and the way they have been written. Also when they were written(as in what was happening at the time), has great bearing on the prose that came forward in the writings and linguistics mannerisms of that being written. Once people are made more aware of this, then that is when the commonalities that exist in these religions will show through
Waiting and seeing won’t change anything, only doing will. There is a quote I remember that sort of applies to this situation(apologies if I don’t get it quite right, i’m going off memory here), “for evil to succeed it only requires that good men do nothing”. I am not a particualy good person, I admit I have done bad things, but I for example once saw a girl being harrassed by two men, rather than pretend I didn’t see it I stepped over and after a few choice words were exchanged, got that girl away and took her to a police station. Now o.k I could have had this or that done to me but it didn’t happen and the girl was safe. But just think what could have happened to that girl if I hadn’t got her away. I just hope that if any of my daughters are in a situation like that then someone will step forward and do the same, these simple things are not big or flashy and they don’t need a reward, but it does satisfy your own sense of self to know that you have shoved back against the insanity. If more people did this for anyone regardless of their colour, or creed, or whatever, then this would help break down those barriers.
I applaud your optimism. Borderline unrealistic, but I guess it’s ok.
In this case, I don’t think there can ever be a compromise, unless there is a common belief (in which there would be no problem in the first place). One side will outpower the other. Majority rules. I think that’s just how it works and will continue to work. Both sides will never be pleased at the same time regarding some issues.
I guess we will just have to wait and see.
Yes those two instances were proven by science, but just to flip this for a minute science itself is a kind of faith. By that I mean what we perceive or are told to be truths are being changed all the time, look at quantum physics for example or even biology, biology stated clearly up until fairly recently that you could not have a biologic that could live in extremes such as sulphuric acid, sulphorous mediums, etc, yet this has now shown to be false. What I guess i’m saying is that science isn’t the be all and end all of proof, that’s why I have said that a “belief or faith system” somewhere may be right just as easily as they can be wrong. As both you and I have agreed no one (alive that is) can say they “know” the truth. Even if a solution does not exist it’s still worth looking for, not for ourselves or an ego trip, but simply for things like, in my case for my kids futures, what kind of being would I be if I went, “hey kids the worlds turning to s**t, don’t bother trying to fix it, it’s not worth the hassle”. From my standpoint it’s a case of at least try otherwise it will be a shithole of a world. I not only don’t want that for my kids, I don’t want it for anyone elses either, so I feel that trying rather than just giving up before the challenge is met is better all round. Look at it this way, if no one bothers to try then there can be no solution because no one is looking, wereas if we accept that challenge and try then who knows, as you say we don’t, but our kids or great, (insert correct number of greats here) grandchildren might find out, and hey, there just might be that solution after all(and before anyone says it, yes I do suffer from a touch of optimism=). )
Well even in those two instances, the religious belief side had to bend.
And again, those two examples are things that can be proved by science. Doesn’t matter if someone is religious or not. But things in terms of commandments/teachings/even the existence of God are a different story. None can be proven/disproved by science.
I still don’t think there is a solution. Of course I am not saying that one doesn’t exist, but atleast in our lifetime, I don’t think anything will happen. I mean these issues have been going on forever. Not saying we shouldn’t try, but I don’t think it’s realistic because like we agree, “nobody knows the truth”.
Agreed, it will be very hard to find a solution, but that doesn’t mean one does not exist. Unfortunately I don’t have the answer but that does not mean we as a race should not try to find that solution.
In the regard of only one side having to bend I have to disagree, if all the sides were to bend then that in itself would be a major step forward. In regards to a religion bending that is why two of my examples were those of flat earth vs globe and earth vs sun being the centre of the universe, in both of these cases religion had to change, to bend, because it had no choice but to accept that in these instances they were wrong. So therefore these two issues that were important parts of the religious beliefs of the time had to be altered. This is why I believe religion can change.
One of the great ironies of all this, is that many of the modern religions are derived from one original, examples are the catholics, protestants, jehovahs, baptists(and many more), they all come from the original aramaic scriptures but have chosen to focus on that part which they consider the most important rather than looking on all as being of equall importance. Most religions believe in one being and the laws from those religions are all pretty similar so if the blinkers were to come off then resolution could come so much quicker, here’s hoping, not expecting, but hoping.
Again, I agree that trying and perseverance are important.
But I don’t see it really happening in this case (religion) because I only see one side having to bend their own beliefs in order to accomodate the other sides belief. And since the “truth” is unknown in this case (which we both agree on), it is kind of different from things on your list.
I don’t know, maybe you have a solution.
I think you misunderstood, As regard god/religion I agree with you, unless somethings occurs whether scientific breakthrough or miracle or prophecy occurs,( if that does happen then I guess it will probably be written in a prophecy or because god( who/whatever) decided it could be done) we won’t know if there is a god( who/whatever) until we are dead.
What I was refering to with my examples is in regard to creating a fair and just society by persevering. Perseverance is what got all of those scientific, etc breakthroughs done. Many of the people who discovered them or proved them did so by trying over and over again, and that is why I say a fair and balanced society can potentially exist in the future if enough people persevere long enough and try hard enough.
Perseverance is one of the traits humans possess that gives us the potential to do almost anything(what the limits are we won’t know until we really have gone and pushed the boundaries as far back as we can), the only trouble is when we get those who pervert perseverance for deranged and selfish purposes. I just hope we as a species know the difference.
I understand what you are trying to say with all the examples you list, but unfortunately those are a different issue. Those things were proved/made through science.
The whole God/religion thing will most likely not be proven through science (probably shouldnt be in the first place, right?). Therefore, it’s in another category. I think we’re at another point where “trying” is done. Can’t go any further.
….and my apologies regarding the gay thing. That was Tinct.
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Cool, i’m glad that was cleared up. =)
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Oh, I agree about the trying part. No doubt that we should all do so.
But, there comes a point when that doesn’t work. Just telling someone “try” when it goes against their beliefs is not going to work. That’s why we have all these issues pop up.
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I’m glad that you agree about trying.
I understand what you are saying about there coming a point when it does not work, and about peoples beliefs whether religious, political or otherwise impeding the flow of things to prevent them from happening, and how this results in these conflicts. The situation will always be that some will consider the decisions of others to be unfair that is why we must persevere in what is to be done. The only way forward is unbiased education for all, a logical approach to the laws and rights of the individual and society, how to deal with issues such as enviroment, etc. Before anyone starts jumping on me and loling and saying it can’t be done, you’re right, it can’t be done because the majority of people give up before they even try. But, if that same majority actually tried and used that scariest of words “perseverance”, then it could be done and we could live in a better way for all. Examples of this perseverance can be seen everywhere throughout history. The world was believed to be flat, the earth was believed to be the center of the universe, flying machines were impossible, putting a man on the moon was never going to happen, going faster than 20mph would kill you,nuclear energy was a fantasy, portable phones were just on star trek, robots were just a sci fi writers imagination, solar energy was a myth, the list goes on and on and on, but people persevered even when they were publicly derided, persecuted, even killed for daring to go in the face of what everyone else said could not be done. In the end it is a case of enough people regardless of race, creed, colour, religion, etc having the courage to work towards the same goal.
I have just read what i’ve written and I admit it sounds preachy, etc, but I believe it’s true, get enough people to aim for the same thing and you can do pretty much anything, here’s hoping, especially for my kids futures
….and my apologies regarding the gay thing. That was Tinct.
Oh, I agree about the trying part. No doubt that we should all do so.
But, there comes a point when that doesn’t work. Just telling someone “try” when it goes against their beliefs is not going to work. That’s why we have all these issues pop up.
I am just against the notion of all religions being silly. That’s all. Nice and simple, right?
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I agree, i’ve not said that all religions are silly, i’m still not sure where you you think I said that, as i’ve said there is always the chance that one of them is correct, so no I don’t think all religions are silly
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Didn’t you previously mention that people against gay marriage based on religious beliefs are wrong? If not, then I am sorry, but if so, then can you explain why?
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No sorry that wasn’t me. The only time I brought up the word gay was in the point regarding words changing meaning over time, I quote “The fact remains that all religious writings have been written by humans and humans get things wrong, misstranslate(Note: all language changes meaning over time, I.E. Gay used to mean happy, now it means homosexual)”. That was my statement.
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That’s why I mentioned the whole separation of religion and state issue and it being very hard to accomplish. You say it should atleast be tried. Please don’t make me laugh. In a perfect world, it would work. But unfortunately, we don’t live in one. Isn’t it because the two things are so hard to separate that we are even having problems in the first place?
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I agreed that it would be hard to accomplish, but just because it’s hard doesn’t mean it should not be tried. Many of the things that we have today would not exist if people had just given up and said that it was too hard. It’s highly unlikely that the world will ever be perfect especially considering we don’t no what god,whoever(assuming there is one) defines as being perfect, but that doesn’t mean we should not try.
I am just against the notion of all religions being silly. That’s all. Nice and simple, right?
Didn’t you previously mention that people against gay marriage based on religious beliefs are wrong? If not, then I am sorry, but if so, then can you explain why?
If your answer is because it’s opression, then I really don’t understand. That’s why I mentioned the whole separation of religion and state issue and it being very hard to accomplish. You say it should atleast be tried. Please don’t make me laugh. In a perfect world, it would work. But unfortunately, we don’t live in one. Isn’t it because the two things are so hard to separate that we are even having problems in the first place?
I really don’t understand why you brought up the oath.
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It’s quite simple, within the wording is contained “so help me god”. The oath is based on the original beleifs of those who were in charge when it was written and is still in use today, why, after all if I wish to defend my country, home, freedom, etc, should I not be allowed to say upon my honour or if I was of a particular regilious persuasion say allah or vishnu or jehovah or whatever. The point never changed, once again read properly.
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See, this is my whole point. The US determines when it can and cannot attack others. It doesn’t matter what it’s basis is. For freedom? For peace? I mean it all sounds nice for the Americans, but this is pretty much the same thing that is happening with the religious radicals. So it basically comes down to, who can determine when it is ok to do things when there is a conflict of interest? The answer, nobody.
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In essence you seem to again be saying either everyone can do what they want or might is right
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And, who freakin cares about the word “God” in there. It’s not really there in that way. It’s just more of a historical thing. I guess if it matters enough to people, then they can change it. Whichever the case, I could care less
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I think you would be surprised by how many americans(in this instance) take the word god in the oath seriously and I highly doubt that the catholic church would see it as just a historical thing
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You again repeat and say that logic is the best. Why? If people are acting lawfully, why can’t they believe in what they want?
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The issue isn’t about people who act lawfully,(and besides, which laws in which country do you define as the right law, after all california for example doesn’t recognise adultery as grounds for divorce, whereas in most others it is recognised, some more severly than others) it’s about those who use religion as an excuse to oppress others, anyone who acts in a sane manner is not the problem.
Why are you so vehemently opposed to logical law and policy making?
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And btw, which religions, specifically, are the silly ones in your mind?
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You’re the one who came up with that to me, I have asked you where I said that, but instead you just keep repeating your question, please show where I wrote “religions are silly” and I can answer your question fully, because as far as I am aware the only time I have used it, is in asking you where you saw me write it.
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I’d like to know, are you a believer in an anarchical state within which to live in, or perhaps just trying to prove your opinion above all others as you seem to be determined to have it only your way which in a sense is not much different to those people who say “only my way is right”, I’m not and have not disputed that there may be a correct religion or that there may be a better way to go about living with each other, all I have said is that a fair and logical method untainted by religious beliefs, hatred of other relgions, colour, shapes, whatever, would seem to be the best way forward. Perhaps instead of saying no, no, no, everyones wrong do what you like, maybe you could come up with a better proposition to mine or buddha or catholicism or islam or judaism or whichever. It’s easy to go “no, you’re wrong” and do nothing, try suggesting a better way.
I really don’t understand why you brought up the oath. It seems like you started out in one direction and then suddenly changed directions towards the end.
See, this is my whole point. The US determines when it can and cannot attack others. It doesn’t matter what it’s basis is. For freedom? For peace? I mean it all sounds nice for the Americans, but this is pretty much the same thing that is happening with the religious radicals. So it basically comes down to, who can determine when it is ok to do things when there is a conflict of interest? The answer, nobody.
And, who freakin cares about the word “God” in there. It’s not really there in that way. It’s just more of a historical thing. I guess if it matters enough to people, then they can change it. Whichever the case, I could care less.
You again repeat and say that logic is the best. Why? If people are acting lawfully, why can’t they believe in what they want?
And btw, which religions, specifically, are the silly ones in your mind?
I still don’t know how one can say ALL religions are silly. In a fundamental sense, it’s impossible to say that.
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Once again You are either not reading what I wrote properly, or choosing to ignore or misinterprett that which I have written. I have not stated that ALL religions are silly. I agree that one or more may be correct.
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At a societal level, I can understand some religions looking silly because of the actions of some of its members. Though, even at the societal level, I still think that one cannot say that all religions are silly. Only some.
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This is essentially a repeat of what you have already said.
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If members of a religion are staying within the laws of the country they live in, then there should be no problem. Ex: people in the U.S. voting on propositions they are for/against. Regardless of the religious basis of their decision, this should be tolerated in the U.S. People killing in the name of religion, now this is a different story. This should not be tolerated in the U.S.
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This part of your statement is where logical decision making should come into effect.
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Now you may say “separation of church and state”, but that is easier said than done. I think it’s quite hard to separate these two things.
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No one is disputing that separation of church and state would be hard, but considering the alternatives, I.E. Inquisition, witch hunts, taliban, etc, then surely even though this is difficult it should at least be tried, to give the most logical and enlightened approach for all of the people within that countries boundaries.
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Just as a brief aside, I would point out that you say you should not kill in the name of god in the U.S and yet it is part of the oath of allegiance, as follows. “I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God”. As you can see in the last 4 words religion is part and parcel of the oath, if you wanted to make this a less biased oath you could change the word faith that appears in it and use the words “upon my word of honour” instead. I know I used the U.S oath here but it crops up in pretty much most oaths around the world.
I still don’t know how one can say ALL religions are silly. In a fundamental sense, it’s impossible to say that. Logic is only as valid as any religion out there.
At a societal level, I can understand some religions looking silly because of the actions of some of its members. Though, even at the societal level, I still think that one cannot say that all religions are silly. Only some. If members of a religion are staying within the laws of the country they live in, then there should be no problem. Ex: people in the U.S. voting on propositions they are for/against. Regardless of the religious basis of their decision, this should be tolerated in the U.S. People killing in the name of religion, now this is a different story. This should not be tolerated in the U.S.
Now you may say “separation of church and state”, but that is easier said than done. I think it’s quite hard to separate these two things.
“You basing your decisions on logic is fine.
But like I said before, that doesn’t make things that are not logical, untrue.
Maybe for you basing your decisions on logic makes sense, but that doesn’t make the people that don’t base their decisions completely on logic wrong.”
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I never disputed that, I just feel that a logical approach would save a lot of time and trouble
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“which one??” theres only one god.
the almighty one who created us, who gave us a chance to live!
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I don’t think you got what I mean’t, You’re GOD could be,”god, jehovah, allah, a space alien(scientology), elvis(yes there is a cult that thinks elvis is god), or any one of a vitually numberless deities around the world.
But just to make a side point here, if your god is the one based on the bible, then you should be aware of a few of the inconguities within the bible. Such as the fact that the birthday of Jesus was in fact a certain greek gods birthday, things such as the serpent or the parting of the sea came from sumeria, and before you jump down my throat with denials, ask any honest religious expert,I.E priest, rabbi, mullah, theologian, etc. Any truthfull one will point out not just these details but many more which are just to many to go into here. Blind faith in a book that is admitedly inconsistant, factually altered and incorrect not to mention all the rewrites(compare a direct translation of the original arameic to a few of the modern day versions such as mainstream catholic, church of england(protestant), mormon, jehovahs witness, etc. You’ll soon see what I mean.
Anyway f**k it, all I basically said was that because of all the different religions and derivatives there of, yes possibly one of them is correct, but because no one knows that, then a logical and moral(sensible) approach seems best. Running around going anyones theory could be right so do whatever you want is pointless and irrelevant as this just gives an excuse to do anything and is an unanswerable premise which I have already agreed with, so unless you want to have an excuse for a free for all, which bear in mind also allows people to do whatever they want to you and yours, then logic is the best course of action .
“which one??” theres only one god.
the almighty one who created us, who gave us a chance to live!
You basing your decisions on logic is fine.
But like I said before, that doesn’t make things that are not logical, untrue.
Maybe for you basing your decisions on logic makes sense, but that doesn’t make the people that don’t base their decisions completely on logic wrong.
In regard to ultimate truth, if you reread what I wrote you will see I agree with you.
Intangibles are only that untill they become tangible, many things have been unproven untill they were finally proven. An example of this is the fact that with the naked eye you cannot see oxygen, it still exists. I agree that religion is is an intangible simply due to the fact that until you’re dead or one of the various prophecies are fullfilled, then there is really nothing to give any weight to any one religions claim to have it right. Wouldn’t it be ironic if both the religious and the atheists were wrong and the truth was something like we were all created due to a big bang from a space gerbil lighting it’s own fart, accidental creation =)
I didn’t say that logic was the ultimate truth, I merely said that logic in the absence of any other non hysterical principle seems to be the most reasonable course of action. With regard to living in logical societies that used to be true, but when the laws are corrupted to extremes they no longer can be considered logical, an example that comes to mind is from a few years ago. There was a severe cold snap that occured at night that directly followed a heavy rainfall so that the rainwater froze, at 7am or thereabouts the postman came along and slipped on the walkway of an old ladies house breaking his leg. The upshot is he sued her for not making the path safe(she was 70+ and wheelchair bound and had not as yet woke up!), she ended up selling her house to pay the compensation, penniless and living in a charity run old folks home.
I agree that what we perceive as right/wrong may be the exact opposite but untill the truth is known we should do what we can. Hell if it’s wrong you can all point your fingers at me and say it’s all my fault=). I don’t know if you ever saw it, but there was an episode of either the outer limits or the twilight zone were we finally met our creators and they said our way of living was wrong and we were all going to be destroyed, they gave us 24 hours to sort ourselves out so all the leaders met and for the first time in history we had world peace(yay!). they told our creators only to find out that it was wrong, the creators had been trying to make a species of warriors (oops), result? total destruction of earth. If this turns out to be the case then to put it bluntly “f**k it”. Next time he, she, it, they should leave clearer instructions, if there is nothing else then why should we not live with logic and humanity.
Pennsylvania Let’s just all love GOD~~ !. Which one?????????????????????
Let’s just all love GOD~~ !
Yes, that is why I was talking about ultimate “truth”. This is different from societal “truth”.
There are things that are intangible in life that people agree exists. It’s based on a feeling. Like love and hope. Can you actually show me love or hope? I think not. Religion is pretty much the same. It’s more of a feeling thing. People can’t prove that it exists, but they sure can feel that it is the “truth”.
And one more thing. Just because we live in societies that seem logical doesn’t automatically make logic the ultimate “truth”. So saying things/actions are bad just because they are not logical is great, but those things could just be the “truth”.
It’s o.k, as it happens I am a Mr, it’s just that I dislike assumption.
I think we are talking at odds to each other and therefore mistaking to what each is refering to.
If you look at post 43 you’ll see that in part I agree with you in that majority rule is inherrent, but without a logical base the laws would break down. If you look at the original laws in most societies they worked in the most part very well, unfortunately as you will be aware when these laws become twisted out of their original premise due to amendments, etc, this is when the logic begins to break down. To be honest to go in to this fully would require more than just a few lines to clarify, rather I think it would take something closer to total wordage used in war and peace at a minimum.
The newborn/wood statement was merely stating that if anything goes, as in a free for all, then what difference in whether I worship a tree or burn it for warmth, or indeed eat fish for sustenance or a newborn babe, that was the point of using logic rather than allowing a free for all attitude.
Anyway, as you say the truth is unknown, but if we live with the attitude of doing whatever whenever, then noone would do anything, after all would you decide to make, design, grow, things if someone could just come along and destroy,render useless, eat it just because? If this was to occur then we’d be in the stoneage faster than it took to evolve and educate ourselves from there.
If you are not a Mr., then I apologize.
Post 41 is what I was referring to regarding your thoughts on killing others.
I disagree with the notion that laws are based on logic. I think many laws are logical, but I don’t think that is the basis of laws themselves. Laws are basically based on what the majority thinks is “right”, and what is most convenient to the majority and/or the people that have power (ex: gov’t).
What are you trying to imply with your newborn child/wood argument? I don’t quite understand. Please elaborate.
Apologies for some spelling mistakes that I have just noticed in rereading what I have just posted, I am a little tired today.
It is good for them as there is no confusion, and why do you assume I am a Mr?
You say that you have questioned if I am logical, where, as far as I can same you have not.
Why do you feel the need to emphasise you words with “haha”, surely that is hardly logical.
Where exactly did I say it was not o.k to remove an instigator of violence from around me or my family, I have only previously said about not starting unnecessary violence.
Also removing persons of this nature to prevent harm to you and your family is quite clearly different to killing someone because they don’t agree with your beleif, colour, cflothes, language, hairstyle, whatever. If you cannot see the difference then your logic is clearly flawed.
Wrong, there can be a line drawn, it’s just that you don’t want one so that your argument can be validated.
You say it seems the same, so a newborn child is exactly the same as two pieces of wood places 90 degrees to each other? I find that remarkable. So then if i’m hungry then I can just eat the child according to you. If you kill for no reason other than you are bored as opposed to killing someone who attempting to kill you then there is a clear difference.
The right thing in a society is essentially a derivative of logic. Why should majority if based on sound thinking not rule, at the end of it all the rules created by most logical majorities are there to protect you as well as others (although I must admit a lot have been twisted or corrupted over time).
That’s great people know where you stand Mr. Logical. (I have questioned if you really are though,haha).
There can be no line drawn. That’s my point.
And btw, why is it all of a sudden ok to kill/harm when one kills/harms a member of your familiy? How is this different from killing/harming in the name of religion?
To me, it seems the same. Once you kill/harm, you kill/harm. It’s just a matter of what a person values.
Now, what is “right” in society is a whole different issue. Basically, majority rules.
Fair enough, you say it’s a free for all. But where exactly do we draw the line. Do we let the nutter who kidnaps , tortures and dismembers his victims go because “god” told him to? based on a free for all attitude, you would have to let him go because he “might” be telling the truth. In essence your statement indicates that (assuming there is a “deity”) we should allow everyone to do anything because they might be right and we don’t know for sure until we die.
Sorry but I’d rather have a logical approach to life. My viewpoint is a simple and fairly logical (in my opinion) way of getting through life and that is that you should treat both myself and my family in a fair and considerate manner and I will quite happily do the same, if you harm a member of my family, I won’t harm a member of yours in retaliation, but I will harm you. Afterwards I will still be polite, etc to your family, but you will have to either keep clear or somehow regain my trust and depending on whatever it is you have done that may take some time. If however you were to say kill or rape a member of my family. I would kill you and afterwards try to apologise to your family if possible, they might wish to take revenge but that had better only be against me.
Many of my friends agree with that principle, others don’t, but at least they all agree on one thing, with my view having been clearly expressed, they know exactly where I stand.
Exactly my point.
It’s a free for all since we don’t know what is the “truth”.
“When nobody knows the “truth”, it’s impossible to say that the other is wrong regardless of what they do. Quite frankly, it doesn’t matter if it affects others.
What happens if what they are doing is the ultimately the “truth”? That means they were doing the “right” thing. We just don’t know.”
Wow, you make no sense. First off, you said this: “Why don’t we all believe in what we want.” Then now you say it doesn’t matter if religion is oppressing others because they COULD be right? You admit yourself we don’t know, so any side could be “right”. So since ANYTHING could be “right”, why is it ok for religion to affect others when the other side has the exact same chance of being “right”?
You say we don’t know the truth and that everyone should be able to believe in whatever they want (both of which I agree with), yet you contradict yourself by saying it’s ok for religion to encroach on other people’s beliefs because we don’t know (even though any alternate belief has just as much credibility as religion does).
You really don’t seem to get the point.
You are mixing things up.
I never said that valuing equality/tolerance is wrong. I just posed that question to you because I don’t think you quite understand something.
When nobody knows the “truth”, it’s impossible to say that the other is wrong regardless of what they do. Quite frankly, it doesn’t matter if it affects others.
What happens if what they are doing is the ultimately the “truth”? That means they were doing the “right” thing.
We just don’t know.
That being said, I agree that religion tends to go overboard sometimes.
To “another number”, I was not referring to your statement in any way, in my statement I was merely referring to the fact that religions cause wars. In some cases these are for utterly ridiculous reasons. Anyway in this case regarding your initial comment, and I quote, “Haha, it’s not about “God(s)” receiving your worship, LOL”. In most religions it is quite clearly perceived that “GOD” is whom you are to worship in the form of belief in he, she, it, whatever. The form of worship is taken in various forms, I.E. Prayer, singing, chants, sacrifice, offerings, and so on and so forth. Many religions alter writings (Catholic), others To my mind it seems that a logical approach to many things is sensible, as opposed to mindless obedience to some ancient papyrus or rock carving or the fanatical ravingof some usually power hungry, egomanial loon who claims( faith now rears it’s head) to have the ear of the all powerfull, or have been spoken to by it, or both. Anyway all I was basically saying is that if you want to believe in an entity then fine believe, I have no problem with that, if you wish to discuss your belief with me, then as long as you’re open to constructive opinion, fine again, just do not attempt to ram your opinion down my throat or harrass me if I choose not to believe your particular viewpoint. Also let other people come to their own conclusion with regards to belief without harrassment or intolerance or predjudice. In many places where I live there are businesses that won’t hire whites, others that won’t hire asians(note: I live in the U.K). All because of religion.
“When did equality for all become the “right” thing? That is why I stated that you value equality/tolerance very highly. I am okay with that., but maybe others value other things higher than that?
Again, what is wrong with that, when we all can’t prove what is the “truth”?”
Because as stated before, these people can believe in whatever they want, but it’s not fair for people to be restricted by other people’s beliefs. No one knows the “truth”, so that means everyone should have a right to live their life how they see fit (since no one is known to be right). Religion however very often encroaches on others.
Just because someone doesn’t think gay marriage is right doesn’t mean they should be able to affect the life of a gay couple. How is it fair for those being oppressed? This is the point: anyone can believe in anything they want except when it encroaches on that same freedom for another group of people.
Lastly, you keep bringing up that maybe some people don’t value equality or that it may not be the “right” thing to someone else. True, but you don’t let the oppressor decide what is of value, and what isn’t. Hitler didn’t value the lives of Jews and to him killing them was the “right” thing to do. He obviously didn’t value equality, and yet, he was still very wrong to do what he did. If you are attempting to defend religious intolerance and encroachment on other people’s lives, you can by the same logic defend Hitler’s Nazi Germany.
Hey The Brian, we posted at the same time even though I was addressing Mr. Logical!
When did equality for all become the “right” thing? That is why I stated that you value equality/tolerance very highly. I am okay with that., but maybe others value other things higher than that?
Again, what is wrong with that, when we all can’t prove what is the “truth”?
Haha, it’s not about “God(s)” receiving your worship, LOL.
And back to our topic, that is why I mentioned that even if a human did write something, if it was a direct revelation from some being above, then there should be no mistake. This is under the assumption that there is a “God” that is perfect and that it was really a revelation.
You want to base your decisions in life all on logic. That is totally fine. Just saying that’s not the only way humans can choose to live.
“So you say that people that are against gay marriage are intolerant? Well, I can easily say the same thing to those for gay marriage. Aren’t they being intolerant by not allowing one to believe in their beliefs?”
Of course not. Those that support gay marriage are fighting for the equality of rights for homosexual individuals, but they are not changing the beliefs of anyone. If gay marriage was accepted, those against it would still be against it (their beliefs would not be encroached on since they would still be against it) and those for it would still be for it; the only difference is that homosexual couples who wish to get married would be able to. You see, those against it (often religious) are intolerant because they do not give homosexuals that freedom to marry; they are against equality for all people (regardless of sexuality). Those for it are not restricting anyone; they simply are supporting equality.
This is similar to the civil rights movement. Many whites were against equality for blacks; so when blacks gained their rights, does this mean these racist white individuals, who were against equality, were the ones being wronged?
“GOD” May or may not exist, but religion has instigatated more intolerance, hatred and war than any other cause in history. The fact remains that all religious writings have been written by humans and humans get things wrong, misstranslate(Note: all language changes meaning over time, I.E. Gay used to mean happy, now it means homosexual), put in their own words, and often just plain steal from other sources, E.G. the parting of the red sea. All you need to do is believe in a higher power(no name or sex or shape, etc), don’t put the other person down for having a different opinion, or desire, or colour, whatever. Be logical in your treatment of others(if you wouldn’t like it done to you, don’t do it to them. In other words, be good and thoughtfull in what you do and how you do it. If it turns out that when I die (after having lived my life in a good manner), that there really is a GOD or ALLAH or JEHOVAH, whatever and they turn me away for not believing in them over any of the other 1000’s of other gods, deitys, etc, then frankly, THEY do not deserve my worship.
Oh yea, the thing you mentioned about humans writing religious texts and it being their interpretation is correct. I agree with you. Humans have probably messed up some religious texts.
Though, through my studies, I have encountered one religious text (there may be others that I am not aware of) that is BELIEVED to be a direct revelation from Jesus. I am not saying that it is, just saying that it is believed so.
Oh man. Here we go again.
Nobody can prove that they know the “truth” (atleast from what I know) and that has nothing to do with being religious, agnostic, or atheist (or anything out there).
And therefore, if nobody knows the truth, then how can someone say that the other is absolutely wrong, evil, silly….(watever adjective you wish to choose)? That is my point.
You probably grew up in the U.S. most of your life. That is most likely why you value equality, tolerance, etc. so much. Go abroad to places that don’t value these things as much and you will see. How can you say their beliefs are wrong?
I am glad that you are against people killing in the name of religion (which I am too), but you are just pushing your agenda by valuing whatever you value over what other people may value.
And what is wrong with standing up for what you believe? (<—–I’m calling this one. You’re probably gonna use this question and quote it, lol) So you say that people that are against gay marriage are intolerant? Well, I can easily say the same thing to those for gay marriage. Aren’t they being intolerant by not allowing one to believe in their beliefs?
Again, I am under the assumption that we agree that nobody knows the “truth”, so it shouldn’t matter what the basis of ones belief is.
I still think that religion is a way of life just as other things are too. We believe in whatever we feel is the “truth” and we live by it.
“My point is, we don’t know what is true. If you can prove to someone that your way of thinking is 100% correct, I guess you’re right. BUT, I don’t think this is possible, so that is why I am saying you are intolerant.”
What? First off, I’m agnostic, clearly stated several times, which means I believe that we all don’t know the truth and may never know. So apparently, we agree that we don’t know the truth, meaning we’re both agnostic? Haha.
“And everyone says separation of church and state. But is this really something that can happen? Religion is a way of life. Believing in science and logic is also a way of life. I don’t think separation of these things is as easy as everyone makes it sound.”
Clearly, separation between church and state should be a reality because religion is not a way of life for anyone but religious people. Believing in science and logic is the way of life for everyone, even religious people. As stated earlier, science and logic cannot be compared to religion; they are totally different. Science is simply a branch of knowledge consisting of facts and truths proven through observation and experimentation. Religion has nothing to do with facts or experimentation; religion is rather a set of beliefs often based upon faith.
I don’t think you saw the point of the article. The point of it was to illustrate my view of religion and explaining how religion’s intolerance has cost the lives and freedoms of others.
You clearly didn’t discern the difference between an opinion (this article) and forcing your view on others (religious wars/oppression stated numerous times by numerous people here). This article simply stated my agnostic beliefs and that reason and rational thought should be valued over faith.
How am I a hypocrite? I respect any religious individual who shares their opinion with me like a normal and civil person. Opinions are welcome, and this is partly why I wrote this article: to spark thought, conversation and the sharing of opinions.
However, I am staunchly AGAINST religious individuals willing to kill others for having different religious beliefs (or non-belief), or those that try to limit the rights of others like homosexuals, women, etc.
There is a huge difference between simply sharing an opinion (this article/comments) and someone forcing their religious opinion/doctrine on someone else (historical and current examples are everywhere of this).
“I am not trying to say that you shouldn’t of written this article, but in the fact that you did and say u hate it when religious people try to tell you about their religion you just became a hypocrite.”
Lastly, please don’t put words in my mouth. I never once said I hated anything, especially anything regarding someone trying to tell me about their religion.
Another makes a good point. if anyone can prove his/her religion or belief is the absolute legit truth, then why would there be so many different beliefs. This also defeats the purpose of religion in itself. with absolute truth with justification or evidence where does faith come into play?
And i like how you say that you have no problem with religious people as long as they keep to their self. Basically saying if they kept to themselves we would all just get along. Yet you type this article giving your 2 cents on religion…..how is that not keeping your view to yourself? I am not trying to say that you shouldn’t of written this article, but in the fact that you did and say u hate it when religious people try to tell you about their religion you just became a hypocrite. Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion and i respect you and your opinion, but to go as far as to say you hate people who try to push their views on you while you write this article is wrong. No you did not force me to read this article, but has anyone ever really forced you to listen to their “truth” about God?
i dont think so….. if they did i am sorry for that because that is wrong. you shouldn’t be forced to listen to something that you do not want to.
Haha, you really don’t understand. We keep on going in circles.
You are totally correct. Religion is not any more credible than any magical alien encounter. I never said that, and that is not the point. You miss it completely.
My point is, we don’t know what is true. If you can prove to someone that your way of thinking is 100% correct, I guess you’re right. BUT, I don’t think this is possible, so that is why I am saying you are intolerant.
And everyone says separation of church and state. But is this really something that can happen? Religion is a way of life. Believing in science and logic is also a way of life. I don’t think separation of these things is as easy as everyone makes it sound.
I do understand their choice to believe, but you’re right, I am intolerant; I am intolerant of senseless killing and the oppression of others. I value life and freedom, something many obviously do not. As I have stated numerous times before, I’m completely fine with religion/religious people as long as they stay within themselves and not affect others.
You say you dislike but understand those that kill in the name of religion and yet you continue to defend the belief/institution for which they kill. So by your logic, the Ku Klux Klan and their value of white supremacy is not to blame for their many crimes; it is simply the people. I disagree. Religion is inherently intolerant, and thus it creates intolerant people who encroach on other people’s lives.
I like how you try and separate the religion from the “imperfect” people. Religion was created and is currently run by people. Every religion has been created by people, regardless of whether you believe “God” bestowed it upon man or not. Even if “God” presented humans with religion, all doctrines have been written by and interpreted by man. The Bible was not written by God/Jesus, but rather people.
If someone came up to you and told you they had met and conversed with a magical alien from outer space, would you believe? What makes this situation any less credible than the stories of religious doctrine?
By not understanding that regardless of why they choose to believe in something and what actions they take (good or bad which is determined by you), you are being intolerant. That is intolerance buddy. You value something different than they do. If you don’t understand this, then I don’t know what to say. I don’t like people that kill in the name of religion, but like I said many, many times, I understand.
And also, alaska makes a good point (I also previously mentioned it). You are grouping religion and the people of that religion together. It’s the humans that are imperfect. Not saying all religion is perfect, but maybe there are some religion(s) out there that are perfect, yet humans just mess it up. That is not the religions fault, it’s humans fault. Maybe we should just say, humans are silly and dangerous.
If you can prove to me that humans made religion, then I guess I am wrong. But if “religion” was bestowed upon humans by God, then I don’t think I am being unreasonable.
You’re missing the point.
The point is religion is intolerant and that is why so many problems arise. Sure, any person who takes anything to an extreme is dangerous, but religion is inherently intolerant of others.
You bring up science, which makes no sense, since it is NOT an opponent to religion nor is it intolerant. Science is simply a branch of knowledge consisting of facts and truths proven through observation and experimentation. The only reason science is often pitted against religion is because outdated religious doctrines have information that often contradict scientific truths.
When religious intolerance is costing lives and limiting the freedoms of others on a global level, you can point no longer at individuals, but rather the institution itself.
Also you guys bring up a point of people killing in the name of religion. Every religion or belief has killed in its own name, you cant tell me that people haven’t killed in the name of science. That is hypocritical. there will always be far right and far left winged people in any belief or religion, where some people will think they should force people to believe in what they believe and then other people of the same belief think that merely teaching or telling people about their belief and letting them choose for themselves is sufficient, and ofcourse many people in between.
What im trying to say is you cant get mad at the religion itself, but the people of the religion. you shouldn’t bash a religion because of some people.
Yea, you guys don’t understand.
It’s quite simple.
I suppose to those who are killing others, religion is the main driving force in their daily lives. Whether you like it or not, that’s how it will be. Whether their actions are horrible, that’s how it will be.
You guys, on the other hand, value equality and tolerance. That’s fine with me and I’m with ya. I’m just saying people have different things they value. And you can’t really say they are wrong cause I guess nobody knows the “truth” in this world. That’s how it just works in this world.
As far as interpretations, I totally understand. This is partly why there are so many religions in the world. It’s so funny how many variations could form from similiar books. I think this was all planned. If one religion were true and there was only one religion to believe in, that would be too boring.
“Killing in the name of a religion (or anything) is understandable, if you can get behind the eyes of a genocidal, bigoted, and virulently hateful man who functions on the mental level of a hyena.”
That is exacly the point. People who belive in God are human too. Just because you belive in God and read the bible dosnt mean you will interprit his word the way he wanted you to. we are all human and follow diffrent logic. If i told a story to 100 people i would prob get 50 or so diffrent interpitations of what people thought that story meant. You shouldnt hate religion just because of the action of the people who belive. You should read it yourself and open your mind a bit to wonder “what if” there was a God.
The intolerance argument is in no way over-exaggerated. It is in fact a very big deal over in the Middle East. Muslims persecute other Muslims for not being the kind of Muslim those Muslims want them to be. Let alone Muslims persecuting certain religious groups or non-Muslims.
I don’t care about ‘truth’; I don’t care about what’s ‘rational.’ People can worship a frozen Butterball turkey and call it Butterballism. That would be stupid. I wouldn’t be able to make myself care (we have scientology, don’t we?). Everyone has their own interpretation of life. Just don’t try and impose your interpretation on me. Live and let live. You’d think it’d be that simple, huh?
Killing in the name of a religion (or anything) is understandable, if you can get behind the eyes of a genocidal, bigoted, and virulently hateful man who functions on the mental level of a hyena.
I agree, religion can be dangerous.
You don’t have to be a genius to know that, I think a lot of people already know that. That’s why I said it was a waste of money. “Thanks for stating the obvious Maher!” He’s probably gonna end up making a profit and using it for himself. Way to go. He’s getting richer off of stupid people watching his movie (unless you’rea critic and it’s your job).
And in no way did I say killing is good. I am just saying, nobody knows what is “true”, so although I hate hearing about people dying over religion, I can understand. I don’t accept it, but I understand.
Oh yea, to say “religion is dangerous” is too big of a statement. There are lots of religions out there. Can’t group all of them into one category. Or atleast that’s what I think.
“I think it’s stupid to kill people over religion, but hey, if that’s what they truly feel the need to do in order to follow the teachings of their God, then so be it.”
This actually sickened me. So, killing someone in the name of their God is “taking it a little too far”. Just a little? Wow.
Also, I’ve already stated agnosticism is the most rational path. Atheists and religious people are just opposite people on different sides of the fence.
Lastly, Maher made his movie because he believes religion is dangerous and has cost lives, which apparently, you seem apathetic about. I think it’s funny you question him for making the movie and not using the money to “help other people”. Do you know how many things could be changed to “help” people? At least he had a message. Maybe you should e-mail Eddie Murphy and tell him to donate the budget on his next mediocre family comedy to a more worthy cause.
Sorry, but the intolerance argument is overrated.
True tolerance will never exist. If you take one side, you will always have to throw another side away. Just like decisions in life, you can’t win them all.
Basically, atheists are intolerant of the religious peoples ideas, just because it is not based on science or logic.
I don’t even know why this guy made his movie. It’s great he thinks religion is silly and illogical, but why not just keep that to himself. What a waste of money. He could have used that money to help other people. I question people like him.
BTW, I think it’s great that everything about religion is not logical. If it were, there would be no need for faith. Defeats the purpose of religion and God’s plan (if he does have one).
And btw, I am not saying that religion is always good. I know there have been countless times where peoples lives have been lost over religion. I think that’s taking it a little too far. I think it’s stupid to kill people over religion, but hey, if that’s what they truly feel the need to do in order to follow the teachings of their God, then so be it.
First of all, I am a christian.
Secondly, Religion is pretty silly.
I agree that many stupid things have been done in the name of Religion. However FAITH (the belief in God) is not silly. Sure, it may be illogical, probably irrational, but that is the entire definition of the word FAITH isn’t it? I don’t claim to know everything there is to know about the supernatural or about God or whatever is beyond death, but I will claim to know God. If you have never spent a time and just opened your mind to the idea of God being with you, than i won’t say I pity you, but I will at least suggest you try it. “closed-minded” is a word often thrown at christians but i would protest that you are as closed-minded. I’m no raised-and-believed-everything-my-parents-told-me christian. I did research. I’m an engineer for crying out loud. I have a hard time believing most stories on the internet, much less stories in a book 2000 years old or older. But still i believe in a living, active, and loving God.
And if all that means nothing to you, consider this. Everyone is trying to be right. “I WANT TO BE RIGHT”. I challenge you to consider instead the “wrong” approach.
Would you rather believe in God and be wrong?
Or not believe in God and be wrong?
Religion being intolerant of others is precisely the problem in not allowing us to “believe in what we want”. Religion’s intolerance of other religions and sometimes non-believers is the cause behind a whirlwind of problems.
Religion doesn’t keep to itself; it encroaches on other people’s lives who are otherwise believing in whatever they want. Religious people want their “truths” extended on others. THIS is a problem and it is wholly relevant as to why we can’t all just believe in what we want. Look at Tinct’s comment for many instances of how religion affects others.
tolerance? Um, what does that have to do with anything?
It’s about what people feel is the “truth”.
“Why don’t we all believe in what we want.”
I agree, because religion is so obviously tolerant of others … right?
There have been so many threads on this issue of religion.
I don’t see why there needs to even be a debate. Why don’t we all believe in what we want. I don’t think anyone can prove either side wrong.
I really don’t get it.
I’d like to add my 2cents if you don’t mind..I was raised in a religious household and I attended sunday school every weekend.About once a month the minister had sunday dinner in our home.But for the 11years that i lived there..i was mentally and physically abused to the point of near suicide.10 years old and wanting to hang myself in a closet was not my idea of godly living.My theory now is plain and simple…if there is a God he will balance my good actions against my wrong ones and i try to do the best i can do.Just because you go to church or pray doesn’t make you a good person..trust me on that.
Funny how the minute someone disagrees (even negligably) with a ‘Religious’ person, the first response they get is “Enjoy Hell”, or “God will not have you.” Funny thing, how they believe the omnipotence of a supreme being, reject any notion that it’s all in their head, and then turn around and presume they know the Will-of-God… So much for the concept of supreme-being!
“There will be many who will prophecy in My name, perform miracles in My name, and do many great works in My name. But I will say to them, ‘Get away from me, for I never knew you.'”
Believe in God? Then keep your damnable opinions to yourself, withhold reservation (Judge not…), and trust in your God’s infinite wisdom! After all, “You will know MY people by their works.”
Almost makes me ashamed to admit I’m Christian…
My thoughts exactly, Brian.
I wouldn’t care about religion if it just kept to itself. But if it did, then I guess nobody would ever follow it.
The creationist a******s who troop onto our campuses with their signs that list 50 reasons why everyone (except them) is going to hell- from watching sports to participating in “revelry”- are the reasons why religion is a problem.
The medieval-minded Islamic radicals who kill their own sisters for committing adultery, who incite genocide against non-Muslims, and who so happily walk into cafes and detonate themselves so they can have an orgy up in heaven are the reasons why religion is a problem.
The Christian and Mormon who votes against gays being allowed to marry the people they love when so many Christians and Mormons trash everything that marriage stands for are the reasons why religion is a problem.
Even the Jews who walk around Israeli towns and beat other Jews for dressing ‘inappropriately’ are the reasons why religion is a problem.
There is no black and white in the world. What is right is always spattered with what is wrong, and what is wrong is always spattered with what is right.
The religious family who goes to church and donates to their community and helps strangers and spread peace and love- those are the true followers, the ones who live and let live, and the people who give religion the good name it so desperately needs to stay alive.
But for the most part, people use religion as a means to achieve their own selfish ends. Whether it’s voting down gay marriage, murdering an infidel for not being your religion (or for being a different religion), or even kissing the ass of a religious group so as to not offend them- that’s why religion is a problem.
Political correctness coupled with religion will bring the end of this world.
First of all, I didn’t literally mean that people will be “rotting in hell” , its another way of saying that you’ll not be in god’s hands, protected.
Gods words are not rational or logical.
I hate it how some people think that god’s a joke, and i also hate it how you think your smart enough to say that religion is stupid..
but whatever, believe what you wanttt.
but i hope you understand, before you die, that god is in you and hopefully you’ll know thattttt.
Your God by your logic is so very cruel to let his wondrous creations rot away in hell for simply not believing in what not is rational and logical.
From the trend of these responses, I can see religion is often passed from earlier generations, especially when the individual is young, and fortified by any fortuitous or even tragic event. If something goes right, it’s “thanks, God!” and if something goes wrong, it’s “at least he’s in a better place”. I’m glad your Aunt is really dedicating herself to helping others, but religion isn’t necessary to be just as selfless.
If you’re a good person, be one. You don’t need God to tell you to be good or else you rot in hell; kind of kills the selflessness, don’t you think?
Also, I’d prefer more people more directly address some of the points in the entry, but any comments are welcome.
I agree with Vickie.
My dad told me that he was really sick one day, and he was on the verge of passing away. But the day before he almost died, he saw god and god told him that my dad should return to the world that he has seen god and his wonderful powers. So my dad is still alive and he knows that gos is alive and is doing wonderous miracles with people. Christianity, any other religion, isn’t a straight path to god, every religion is a bumpy path to god, each has it’s ups and downs, but during that time we learn more and more about god. God created this world for us to live in, but selfish people who believe against god, worship satin, made this world what it is today. Listening to music about satin and hell is a step away from god, engaging in porn is another step away from god. God does his work in ways we don’t understand properly, but we should all know that he created us, and he won’t let bad things happen. Bad things that happened are for the good things to happen.
My aunt attends a korean presbyterian church every sunday and she believes in god but, my cousin, who was 21, passed away in a horrible car accident one day. We got a call from Maryland Hospital that he was hospitalized with so many injuries. Police told us that he got in an accident and he somehow jumped out of his car to escape an exploding car, and he rolled onto a highway in Maryland. Few minutes later a tractor trailor runs over him, breaking both his legs, then the driver leaves my cousin on the road to be there all by himself, i guess it was a quiet highway with barely no cars because they found him the next morning, flew him to the hospital. My aunt wanted to die so bad because of this. All of my family and i went up to the hospital and the doctors told us he was in a coma state, then soon developed a fever so high that he was about to die real soon. The parents went in to see him and say wishes to get him to his feet again, but the kids were not allowed in because of how a disastrous state he was in. Then the doctors had to cut off both of legs, up to his knees because it was cause of the fever, few days later he died.. the last time i ever got to see my cousin was on thanksgiving, he passed away december 31, 2001. But from this, my aunt became a strong believer in christ that my cousin was in a better place and that life wasnt over for her, that she can do miraculous things to the world. She began doing missionary work at church, helping poor kids in korea and other good missionary jobs, she published a book on how the death of her son changed her life to get to know god more, and to help others in need. I, who is 15 years old, saw how God’s work changes somebody’s life, like my aunts, to get closer to god.
I believe in god strongly, and i forever will live in his name!
So non-believers out there, have a fun time in hell because god isn’t letting you thru his gate! AMEN!
“Simply Religulous” is a good article. I’m guessing you’ve listened to Bill Maher a bit. He has this same philosophy. However, for some reason he doesn’t use the term, “agnostic”. He calls it “rationalist”. I too have declared myself an agnostic/rationalist. I’m truely amazed at how many people believe in what is not rational. I don’t look at it as a neurological disorder as Bill Maher does. I think it’s a psychological disorder. Brain washing is very much what has happened to these true believers.
Actually, atheism is not baseless and/or arrogant, as it’s not a philosophy: its an UNphilosophy. That’s what the “a” means. Atheists (like myself) are simply people who don’t believe in things for which no evidence exists. Religious people frequently offer the classic “your atheism requires just as much faith as my religion because you are sure there is no god and i’m sure there is” – which is just proof they need to look up “faith” “beleif” and “evidence” in the dictionary. Atheism is in the spirit of the philosophy of science – it’s a “show me” philosophy about the world. Atheists believe in things that it is possible for human beings to know, and don’t believe in things that might exist but for which there are no good reasons to accept. The flaw in this reasoning is the presumption that, about things which are not or cannot be known, all positions are equally likely. This is false; while it is still POSSIBLE that there is some sort of supreme being out there somewhere, it is not LIKELY – and nothing in the universe humanity has yet seen requires the existence of such a being for its explanation. The likelihood of the existence of such a being is, from the evidence we have, equivalent to the chances of dragons, angels, unicorns, elves, and any other mythological entity you can think of, so there is no basis to accept that it is true. Atheism is simply the default assumption that anything that we cannot know is false, which is actually how EVERYONE lives their lives regarding every other mythologically goofy idea on that list.
I’m sorry for your condition but I’m not convinced “God” or “Jesus” had anything to do with the strength you exhibited in overcoming your original diagnosis.
Doctors are only human and modern medicine, no matter how advanced, is not a certainty. Just because they were wrong doesn’t mean religion is credible; the leap just isn’t logical.
I have a feeling you didn’t read much of the entry.
Religion is not silly Jesus is as really as you and me i’m living proof i was 6 months old my mother found out i had heart problem when i was 3 months through the grace of god and the wonderful power he gave the doctors i’m alive to tell this but also i have cebley palsy and the said i would never walk well i spend 7 months in a hospital when i was 3 and once again our wonderful heavenly father showed thoses doctors they didn;t know everything because i took my first step when i was 3 now i know other people are like me and worse off then me but if you look and people like me god shows his power everyday because what don’t kill us makes us stronger people want to kick god out of everything in this mess up world because they don’t believe but let me tell you he will not be denied he’s here everyday if everyone stood up for what’s right this world would a whole lot better off then just always bowing down to what the non believers want besides if you don’t have faith in a better life in heaven the all the crap happening in this place we live it is pointless it you don’t believe you better start because he’s coming soon oh if you believe that religion is silly my didn’t you sign your name on bottom.